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Stamp: In the context of Today by 8manderz8 Stamp: In the context of Today by 8manderz8
Open up the Bible to your favorite grimace-worthy passage, whether it be 2 Kings 2:23-24, Genesis 38:9-10, 2 Kings 1:9-10, or any of the other various God-created genocides and mass murders (Genesis 7:21-23, 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, Exodus 12:29, Numbers 16:41-49, 1 Samuel 15:1-9, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 3:3-7, Deuteronomy 2:32-35, Joshua 6:20-21, etc).

Ask yourself, is X action moral? Is stoning adulterers and homosexuals and blasphemers to death moral? (Various crimes worthy of stoning) Is cutting off family solely because they don't believe in God moral? (Matthew 10:34-36) Is slaughtering the first born of every household because of the crimes of a single man moral?

If your answer was no, congratulations! You have a better sense of morality than the Bible.

My point is this, if we can look into the bible and see all these things that are off, wrong, immoral, then why is it still considered relevant in the sense of morality these days? It was a product of its time and of the minds of the men who wrote it. If we ever needed proof that morality can exist independently of religion, this would be it. In the end, the Bible is morally irrelevant in our culture today. Yep. That's pretty much it.

Texture here: fav.me/d6m0n50
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:iconlinkzilla:
Linkzilla Featured By Owner Dec 13, 2014
It's so sad that Christians still defend this when it's so obvious that this is true.
But what honestly irritates me the most isn't the fact that the Bible - which is considered a guideline for morality - is morally irrelevant, but the fact that GOD - who my entire life has been held up and praised as the STANDARD for Morality - doesn't care about Morality at all...

Being a Good person, leading a good life, being a kind, giving and thoughtful of how you treat others does absolutely NOTHING to get you into Heaven. Only putting your faith in God does. See? it's not about Morality at all...It's just another way for God to glorify his Massive Ego.
So...essentially anyone can be as morally corrupt as they want, but as long as they Kiss God's Ass, they get into Heaven.

Mortality = Morality
Immortality = Amorality
'nuff said

P.S. - what I have absolutely hated about taking my World History Class this year is that, whenever me or another student was judgmental of a topic like this, we were told by the professor and other students that we cannot hold people from a different time and place to the same standards and morality that we have in the day and age. And to that I ask, "Why?"
My only guess as to why is that, people back then were less intelligent than we are now - to whit, I admit that on terms like science and technology, they were. Except that I know that people back then DID have a sense of Right and Wrong; sure people back then did not like Homosexuality because it was abnormal. BUT if they DIDN'T have a sense of right or wrong, there'd be no laws regarding murder, theft, or essentially any of the Moral Standards that we have today. I can only imagine that my classmates and Professor are in the mind-set that people back then did not know any better. But I see an interesting parallel to that.
A CHILD does not know any better, but an Adult will still hold that child to Moral Standards that they know the child knows. That is how I see the situation from the people of early civilizations who chose to believe in something like this, and deluded themselves to thinking that everything God does is right.
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:iconfireflyexposed:
FireFlyExposed Featured By Owner Edited Oct 12, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
It always interests me when I come across people who try use the Bible against itself but don't actually know what the Bible is saying.
Text, without context, is a pretext ... also commonly known as a logical fallacy.
I won't touch on the Old Testament passages. There are just too many to address and you seem to feel that Matt 10:34-36 somehow reinforces violence.

Matt 10:34-36 talks of Jesus bringing a sword, a weapon which divides and severs. But if you read on in Matthew, you will read in Matt 26:52; Jesus rebukes Peter for taking up his sword against the Roman soldier and cutting off his ear (which Jesus "reattached") - "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword”. Jesus' sword was never a literal sword, it is the metaphorical sword.

Second factor is this:
John 15:18: “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you."
Jesus warns that his followers will be hated because of their love of him (a different hatred than today that is entirely the fault of over zealous, stepping on your toes Christians). It's in this that we see the sword ... the sword is the hatred of friends and family of those who follow Christ, they will shun them for following Christ. This could be one of the greatest costs of discipleship, for love of family should not be greater than love for the Lord. This is one of the crosses they must bear - Matt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

But again - Text, without context, is a pretext ... also commonly known as a logical fallacy. If you don't know something, we live in an age of instant information ... Google is at your fingertips. There are many people out there to ask or turn to. No one is telling you to convert, just to not misrepresent information that is so easily accessible.
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:iconlimnoria:
Limnoria Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2014
She addressed this too: 8manderz8.deviantart.com/art/S…
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:iconfireflyexposed:
FireFlyExposed Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
She didn't say that and that still doesn't make her statements any less incorrect.
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:iconlimnoria:
Limnoria Featured By Owner Dec 8, 2014
:roll:
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:iconfireflyexposed:
FireFlyExposed Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
Bored by FireFlyExposed You just won the argument with an emoticon
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:iconlimnoria:
Limnoria Featured By Owner Dec 9, 2014
I'm that awesome.
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:iconflyingwaffles14:
flyingwaffles14 Featured By Owner Sep 23, 2014
As if anything is morally wrong. Right and wrong are outdated concepts.
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:icontoaarcan:
ToaArcan Featured By Owner Oct 27, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Well said. I find it funny how they say that homosexuality is a sin, yet the same book also says that they can't wear clothing woven from seperate kinds of cloth. And none of them abide by that rule...
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:iconfuzz3knavel:
fuzz3Knavel Featured By Owner Oct 27, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Or eat pork and shellfish.

Unless you're a 7th day Adventist, then meat of all types is forbidden.
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:icontoaarcan:
ToaArcan Featured By Owner Oct 27, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah, that too.
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:iconfuzz3knavel:
fuzz3Knavel Featured By Owner Oct 27, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Yup, I really can't stand it when Christians do that.

And then they give the excuse, "Oh, it's Jewish law, not Christian!"

Well if that's Jewish law not to eat pork and shellfish and wear clothing made of a different type, then same applies to Homosexuality.
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:iconenemom:
Enemom Featured By Owner Nov 28, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Actually, homosexuality was mentioned in the New Testament, the ones Christians follow. I suggest you read Romans. 
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:icontoaarcan:
ToaArcan Featured By Owner Oct 27, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Yeah.

There are probably Jewish homosexuals too.
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:iconfuzz3knavel:
fuzz3Knavel Featured By Owner Oct 27, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Mmhmm. 

I had a Jewish friend who was gay.

There is also a Jewish version of Christianmingle that allows same-sex couples.


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:icontoaarcan:
ToaArcan Featured By Owner Oct 27, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Good.
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:iconlordelthibar:
LordElthibar Featured By Owner Oct 17, 2013
Rubbish, you have not studies the Scripture right to learn that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Testament Law. However there are rules and regulations from which to follow. The New Testament Law is the foundation for Christianity and it is completely relevant. I don't see the Atheists coming up with anything better. Who are we to relly upon for morallity then, corrupt bureaucrats? Because we have thrown God out of our culture, criminals mark society's laws now.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
Double rubbish- Jesus never said he came to "fulfill" or change the old testament laws- in fact, he says quite the opposite. 
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:iconlordelthibar:
LordElthibar Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
Wrong! I have read the entire Bible myself twice and I have been educated in a Bible college about the passage. What makes you think you know better than one who's trained to have this as part of his knowledge of expertise? Plus, what do you care if you aren't a Christian?
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
I was a christian for most my life, and I know well enough what Jesus said. All you have is interpretation of words written down generations after they happened, subjective text reading that is as intellectually consistent as it is abhorrent.
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:iconlordelthibar:
LordElthibar Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
And you think God would have changed? Are you calling me a liar? The fact is that I have research and intrepretation on how Christ fulfilled the Law. I have had to do a school research project on it.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
Your god does, by all accounts, change significantly from one part of the bible to the other. In the old testament, he comes off as a psychotic, petty, sadistic murderer, and in the new testament this attitude is somehow set in reverse.
No, I don't think I did call you a liar. I do think that your bible is inconsistent and immoral, though. 
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:iconlordelthibar:
LordElthibar Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
Why would you consider God a murderer for enforcing His own rules? He has not changed for His plan for Jesus had been there since the beginning of time.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
I do consider it murder when, for example, he kills all the firstborn in Egypt for something none of them did.
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(1 Reply)
:iconquietw8:
QuietW8 Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2013
You've made a case for why the old testament no longer applies in today's world, but not so much the new testament. You picked only one verse from the NT, of which you took out of context. The verse from Matthew was about separating from those who don't follow God's will, not simply those who do not believe. God's will, according to Christ, is to do good to one another. If your family cannot be good to one another, it makes sense to distance yourself from them. Christ was speaking of volatile relationships. He didn't mean to disown someone simply because they are atheist. You truly understand that verse, you have to read in context of the verses surrounding it.
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:iconghostofanidiot:
GhostOfAnIdiot Featured By Owner Oct 16, 2013   Artist
So, the Old Testament doesn't apply to the modern world any more?
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:iconquietw8:
QuietW8 Featured By Owner Oct 16, 2013
It SHOULDN'T, but some still believe it should. If anyone (Christian, Muslim, or atheist) thinks that it does, then they haven't truly understood the message of the Gospel. The letters of Paul aren't necessary to follow either. The most central aspect of the Christian faith is the Gospel. There is some genuine wisdom in the other chapters of the New Testament, which may be worth considering. Then there's commentary about how women shouldn't hold positions of authority, or how gays wont be saved. None of that was really explicitly said by Christ in the Gospel, and it seems like some of the Apostles were advocating personal opinions on how the early church should function.

People can nitpick every detail of Christ's sermons, but ultimately it is a message of peace. There's no message to incite wars, or burn witches, or impede science. In fact, some early churches supported science. Wikipedia might only provide a short summary, but it describes that some Christians did seek out knowledge: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic…

There are many religious persons in modern times who study and believe in science. People can still believe that the earth is 6,000 years old if they want to. However, it's not imperative to the Gospel (which is the core of Christianity), and should not be forced into schools.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
Didn't Jesus make it pretty clear that he was okay with the old testament, that he was not there to change it?
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:iconquietw8:
QuietW8 Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
What you're referring to is this:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Matthew 5:17

Jesus specifies that it is the Ten Commandments he was referring to:

“There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” - Matthew 19:17

“‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” - Matthew 19:18-19

“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” - Matthew 22:37-40

Jesus didn't say to keep the laws concerning menstruation, or homosexuality, or what to eat. He also didn't mention the sabbath in those verses. That's not to say Jesus didn't honor the sabbath, but the disclusion of it implies that creationism isn't imperative to the Christian faith. It is altruism and good will which Christ emphasizes.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
No, that's not specifying that that first statement was about the ten commandments only. The second statement could just as easily be a general statement- your bias leads you to assumption. "Not an iota shall be lost."
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:iconquietw8:
QuietW8 Featured By Owner Oct 29, 2013
What does bias have to do with it? I've read the Gospel, and didn't see Jesus order anyone to follow the old laws such as the ones I mentioned (menstruation, homosexuality, diet). In fact, Jesus defied the law concerning what to eat when he said, "it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles, but what comes out of." This put him in direct opposition with the Jewish leaders, as it opposed the law. This is not a contradiction, but an indication that what he meant by not abolishing the Law, was not abolishing the commandments.

"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!' Jesus replied, 'And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?'" Matthew 15:1-3

"What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them." Matthew 15:11

When Jesus was asked what was most important, he recited lines from the ten commandments. If Jesus believed that wearing matching fabrics was important, would he not have mentioned it? In fact there's a verse wear he specifically says not to worry about clothing. That's contrary to the old law which states that Jews should wear clothing only of the same material.

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?" - Matthew 6:25

If we're going to claim bias, as an anti-theist you could just as easily be interpreting scripture in the most inflammatory way possible, so as to rationalize personal bias. In psychology, it's well known that when opinions clash, a person will often look for signs of bias as a means to maintain their own reasoning. Either of us could be bias, but from your standpoint you will be more likely to believe that I am the biased one. I'm not calling you bias, but if I were to, you could simply find a way to deny the implication.

I recommend following these links, which address the human desire to win debates:

www.cracked.com/article_19468_…

www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/art…

www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0QLjA…
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:iconquietw8:
QuietW8 Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2013
*To truly understand that verse
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:iconpyrrhusivictoria:
PyrrhusiVictoria Featured By Owner Oct 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist

Some of the basic stuff has a good ethical/moral ring to it - don't bare false witness against your fellow man, don't murder, etc. But I have to agree, some of the laws are a bit beyond morally questionable. Nothing proves the point more than low to mid 20's Deuteronomy. Classics like verse 21 where it spells out what to do when you're beating up your enemies and find among them some pretty young lass you want for yourself. For some reason, this includes shaving her head and "humbling her". And if you later discover you don't really like her, you can just dump her. Oh, but you can't sell her for money. I guess that's sort of moral...ish? Confused 

 

But verse 25:11 takes the cake for me. I actually thought this was a sarcastic joke when I first heard it. Basically, if a man and his neighbor are fighting for some reason, and the neighbor smiteth the crap out of the man, and the man's wife comes to rescue of her now smitten man, and... oops! accidentally puts her hand on the neighbor's privates while attempting to rescue her husband... the fighting is to cease immediately, and the husband is to cut off her hand!! Oh, and he is also specifically told not to feel sorry for her. In what universe is this moral?? Disbelief 

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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Oct 28, 2013
Those ethics you speak of- don't lie, don't kill, don't steal- are inherently human qualities, which exist in every culture around the world, before and after the bible. I do not see why the bible should get any points for that. 
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:icondvdsnsam:
dvdsnsam Featured By Owner Oct 6, 2013  Student Filmographer
I see that you've picked out some interesting verses. I won't claim to be an expert at the Bible or anything, but if you'd like, I'd be interested in picking your brain a bit. I was looking through some of the excerpts you picked out, and I was curious about the one in Exodus (the one about killing the firstborn). I remember reading about that and thinking it was odd as well, but not for the reason your showing, though it is worth mentioning. I think it was more odd that throughout the whole ordeal of getting the Israelites out Egypt, Pharoh (the man in charge of Egypt) had agreed a couple of times to let God's people go. Then in the Bible it clearly states that God "Hardened Pharoh's heart" to make him change his mind and make him treat the Israelites more cruelly.Exodus 11:9-10 That's a little weird. Why would God put the Israelites through more suffering at his hands? I don't know. There are a few things like this that I don't understand.

Thanks for using references to what you were arguing against. Can't tell you how many times I'll see some ignorant troll just rant and rant against something when he/she's not done any research to back themselves up. I can tell that you've researched and have a clear understanding of why you think the way you think. If you wish to continue the discussion, I'd be happy to as well. I always enjoy seeing a different perspective. It gives me the chance to learn something new.
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:iconlolitheleopard:
LolitheLeopard Featured By Owner Oct 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
So long as Blasphemers, Homosexuals, Adulterers, Kids born out of wedlock, and People who work on Sundays remain un-executed Merica will NEVER a "Christian Nation".
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:iconbloodredfullmoon:
BloodRedFullMoon Featured By Owner Oct 6, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Oh, but all those bad things in the Old Testament are only applicable to jews, because while jesus clearly said that he hasn't come to change laws, those laws obviously don't apply to post-jesus christians no mo'.

Or something like that.
I am baffled time and time again just how convoluted their reasoning becomes when they try to rationalize this stuff.
And yeah, of course, anything in Leviticus that doesn't agree with contemporary morals, like stoning people for various things (why is it always stoning, anyway?), only applies to jews. But that one little verse about how homosexuality is wrong and all that, now that is still relevant for every single christian, right? And even beyond that for every single non-christian as well, obviously, because we all live in one huge theocracy and all that, after all.

I don't get those guys.
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:iconaclockworkkitten:
AClockworkKitten Featured By Owner Oct 6, 2013  Student Digital Artist
"If your answer was no, congratulations! You have a better sense of morality than the Bible."

Or at least the guys who wrote it.  If there is a God, I don't think he'd want you to stone your kid for being an atheist.  Funny how nobody thought that this was a little off when one of the commandments literally says "though shalt not murder."
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Oct 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
There's an exception to that rule when you believe you're killing on behalf of god apparently, lol...
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:iconlucyfaerie:
LucyFaerie Featured By Owner Oct 6, 2013

Very nice.

 

As for the morality and common sense thing, what is wrong with that one small saying?

 

Treat others the way you would want to be treated.

 

I think the context of that could be applied in this manner; before saying or doing anything, take a few seconds to think about what you're going to do next and ask yourself if the shoe was on the other foot, meaning you were about to be on the receiving end of what you were about to say or do, would you really want to say or do it to someone else?


It's not complicated.  If people could just apply that one small, insanely simple thing, things would be so much better in so many ways, I think.

 

Just the not enough coffee yet this morning commentary from a flaky old bat.  I'll go back to lurking now.

 

Nice stamp, though.

 

<3

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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Oct 6, 2013
Also importantly, god doesn't actually, to my knowledge, say why any of his laws are good or bad. Even if we could assume that all of this bullshit had moral value, it still would not be moral on account of not actually justifying and explaining itself as morality. 
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:iconvyanni-krace-ace:
Vyanni-Krace-ACE Featured By Owner Oct 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Perfectly summarised. This is basically exactly the point that I've been trying to argue for years.
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:iconthesilentraven:
TheSilentRaven Featured By Owner Oct 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Perfectly summed up. :) The thing that always frustrated me with bible thumpers was that they tend to pick and choose what is considered relevant then act as if it is a book created by their all-powerful God and cannot be changed. Some extremist Christians take the Bible way too literally and don't seem to get that morality changes as culture changes. They seem to believe that moral values are set in unchanging stone.
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:iconmasterrottweiler:
MasterRottweiler Featured By Owner Oct 5, 2013  Professional Digital Artist
YOU'RE TAKING IT OUT OF CONTEXT! ^^'

Nah, just kidding, but, yeah the bible is morally irrelevant at best. Morality is not exclusive of any religion, and the bible is demonstrably full of evil verses.

Regarding the "out of context" apologetic defense, I guess the obvious logical question is; in which context is X verse morally acceptable/justifiable? Context defense, in my opinion, is the weakest apologetic argument for the bible.

Awesome stamp, as always.
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:iconfuzz3knavel:
fuzz3Knavel Featured By Owner Oct 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
:iconclapplz:

Summed it up well.
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:iconlimnoria:
Limnoria Featured By Owner Oct 5, 2013
You sum up perfectly rants that I can't put into words.  I literally had this conversation earlier today.

Oh, but we forgot, we aren't considering the context of these verses... :roll:   Fucking apologetics...

Great stamp! :)
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Oct 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Thanks! :heart:
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