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Stamp: Patriotic Liberal by 8manderz8 Stamp: Patriotic Liberal by 8manderz8
The simplest definition of patriotism is a love for your country. One thing the right loves to do is paint liberals as anti-American, unpatriotic jerks. The unpatriotic liberal is now ingrained in many people's minds, so deeply that even the notion of mild patriotism seems absolutely terrible. Yes, we know how badly nationalism when unchecked by reality can turn out. But I don't think that patriotism is something worth fearing - moderation is key.

I'm proud to be an American citizen because despite the bad, which every country has its fair share of, we have a lot of good to offer. Our ability to unite cultures, the rights we enjoy and often take for granted. Our history, the creativity of our people. We're a pretty nifty bunch. We do have a lot to improve upon, but it takes a patriot to continue the work. I want to see my country do better because I love it, even if it is riddled with people who would despise me based on my political opinions alone.

Do you consider yourself a patriot of your country? How much patriotism is "enough?" How much is "too much?"


Side note: This is why Washington State is much better than your home state :lol: >Click<
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:icondrfuturism:
DrFuturism Featured By Owner Edited Apr 7, 2015  Student Writer
Just because I'm liberal doesn't mean I'm a fascist...

I just don't want people to own assault rifles under the cover story they need them for hunting and warding off robbers...
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:iconbrotherhood-paladin:
Brotherhood-Paladin Featured By Owner Jun 26, 2014
I would say I am a patriot who hates much of my country
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:iconyoung-stoaty-chap:
Young-stoaty-chap Featured By Owner Oct 7, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Aren't you from Australia? 
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Oct 7, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I am an American citizen, but I married an Aussie and am an Australian resident at the moment.
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:iconyoung-stoaty-chap:
Young-stoaty-chap Featured By Owner Oct 7, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I see. I live across the Tasman from you then. 
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Oct 7, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Ooh, which island? I went to Auckland a while ago for a week, it was pretty fun :) 
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:iconyoung-stoaty-chap:
Young-stoaty-chap Featured By Owner Oct 8, 2013  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I live in Auckland. I'm going to the South Island for a while, though.
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:iconrevilnemesis3:
revilnemesis3 Featured By Owner Mar 15, 2013
I am a liberal but I do agree with conservatives on a few points. Due to a heart defect I am ineligible for service in the US military but I care about most of my fellow Americans (I do have limits) and I would defend my country if it was invaded. If I am not considered a patriot just because I'm a liberal, everyone who believes that can burn in Hell.
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:iconninjawerr:
ninjawerr Featured By Owner Jun 12, 2013  Professional Writer
People like you... We need more of you.
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:iconrevilnemesis3:
revilnemesis3 Featured By Owner Jun 12, 2013
I didn't expect this. Especially since it looks like you're at the other end of the spectrum.
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:iconninjawerr:
ninjawerr Featured By Owner Jun 18, 2013  Professional Writer
I Am the other end of the spectrum, But Riddle me this. Can A Right or Left winged Bird Trully Fly? We need eachothers political vewpoints if we are to pull this country out of this hell. Also Sice we have 2 ways of vewing poblems we should honor that and use it as our steanght and find poblems we can both see to fix them in a way that benifits all. that is my hope and that is one of the reasones i Formed the Order of the Cleric USA, so far i have a conservite and a conspearacy theroist in the deveanart cyber charter, would you like to be the liberal?
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:iconrevilnemesis3:
revilnemesis3 Featured By Owner Jun 18, 2013
Sorry, I'm just not used to a calm political discussion online. I'm also surprised that I found someone else who realizes that both sides need to work together to help the country. I'll consider the offer but I believe you should also invite the creator of this stamp, she would make a good liberal member but you should explain it first otherwise she might think it is just a conservative group.
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:iconninjawerr:
ninjawerr Featured By Owner Jun 18, 2013  Professional Writer
very well then there will be an even number. good idea. Thanks.
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:iconmaster-of-the-boot:
Master-of-the-Boot Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Indeed, one need not be of any particular party or political leaning to be a patriot. But a true patriot would be willing to compromise in the name of his country's wellbeing. Something that many modern "patriots" are lacking.
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:iconspeakthroughfingers:
SpeakThroughFingers Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Here, here! While I'm glad I don't live in America, and think there are so many issues with it... I still love it and love visiting it. Going there(specifically North Dakota) is "going home" even though I've never actually lived there. < 3
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:iconsonikkubumu2:
Sonikkubumu2 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013
My view of patriotism is not waving around a flag chanting the name of your country, but looking after the people in your area and country.
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Definitely agree there :)
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013
Patriotism is, in my opinion, a poison. It teaches one to be proud of achievements that you had nothing to do with, to defend historical people and acts not because they deserve to be defended, but because they belonged to your nation and your history. Patriotism resembles religion too much for me to be comfortable with it.
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Hm... Well those are fair enough points. I think it's also worth noting though that people can be patriotic without getting to the point that you describe. I don't defend slave owners because they were Americans too, nor do I defend Bush simply because he was an American.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013
I myself would much rather feel proud of my own achievements. I can be funny sometimes, I can write, I'm good atn English... those are small achievements, but they are mine alone. THey weren't built by my forebears, they were built by me. The moment one becomes patriotic, one opens oneself up to a horrible amount of bias, and I think that's disruptive to proper skepticism.
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Oh, I'm not claiming that you have to have one or the other, patriotism or pride in your own achievements.. I certainly am proud of my own achievements, but it's also okay in my mind to be able to identify with the identity that comes of a place's history and culture.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2013
To identify with a set of beliefs and a culture is not the same as irrationaly feeling pride for its sake IMHO.
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Gasp.. Something we disagree on! :fear:
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 12, 2013
I knew this day would come... *pulls out sword* it has been an honour, but now we must fight to the death.
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 12, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Haven't you ever seen Indiana Jones & the Raiders of the Lost Ark? [link] :lol: Don't forget, I'm from 'Mericuh!
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(1 Reply)
:iconzinc-tails:
Zinc-Tails Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I come from a long line of military veterans, and I myself endeavor to support our troops in every way I can. I also stand firm to help defend freedom, liberty, and the happiness of my fellow Americans. I consider myself a Patriot in every sense of the word, even if my nation pisses me off from time to time. To paraphrase Voltaire, I may disagree with what a lot of these idiots say, but I'll die to defend their right to say it. When these spineless, arrogant, sacks of shit who think that slapping an American flag bumper sticker on their call and owning an AK47 is all it takes to be a patriot, have the gal to call me Un-american because I'm a Liberal...it makes my blood boil.

Patriotism isn't about putting bumper stickers on your car and going to a veterans day parade once in a bluemoon. It's about standing up for the ideals of your nation, it's about having pride in the place that you call home, it's about having the courage to defend her no matter what, and it's about having the strength to stick to your guns in the face of opposition. Folks like me are here to put the blue, in the Red White and Blue.
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
"When these spineless, arrogant, sacks of shit who think that slapping an American flag bumper sticker on their call and owning an AK47 is all it takes to be a patriot, have the gal to call me Un-american because I'm a Liberal...it makes my blood boil."

Completely agree. I'm actually reminded of a documentary I watched recently - Freedom Fries: And Other Stupidity We'll Have to Explain to Our Grandchildren. They briefly touch on the things you mention, I think it's worth a watch.
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:iconzinc-tails:
Zinc-Tails Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
I'll take a look at it later, but the name seems familiar so I may have already seen it.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 7, 2013
By the way, I would like to thank you for remaining curteous and mature in our discussion. I think that's a first in the time I've debated nationalism.
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:iconzinc-tails:
Zinc-Tails Featured By Owner Mar 7, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Nothing is gained through aggression and vitriol. It's good to have a civil debate from time to time. I return the thanks to you for being such a knowledgeable and civil adversary.

Here, having a clapping Pinkie :iconpinkieclapplz:
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 7, 2013
Much appreciated. You remind me of somebody else I know, who is both patriotic and civil :D

Pinkie is best pony :D
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013
Tell me- does your support of the military stem from the cause they stand by, or the fact that they are US military?
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:iconzinc-tails:
Zinc-Tails Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Both, in a sense. As the cause and the system that enables the cause are invariably linked. Our nation is first and foremost about our basic freedoms, even if those freedoms allow certain...groups... to move in a way as is to curtail said freedoms. As when I paraphrased Voltaire, here idiots have the right to be idiots. Our military defends those freedoms, or at least they are supposed to. You can't blame the troops or the military as a whole for the fact that the politicians send them into wars that have nothing to do with preserving our nations liberty. They put their necks on the line for me, so I can live here comfortably, even if I am accosted by the aforementioned idiots.

So to answer your question succinctly, I support them because of both the cause they defend, and the nation they defend.


Now for my question, why does it matter why I support them? I read your response to this stamp, so I have sort of an idea where you are coming from. But I can assure you that I am not some "red-blooded" redneck patriot (pretty sure my bumper sticker comment makes that clear) who can't see past his own nations failings. Being a patriot, a true patriot, is about being able to see when your country is wrong. I wouldn't blindly support everything our nation does, nor will I absolve it of it's past sins. We make mistakes here, we aren't perfect, but does that mean I can't support it? That I can't be proud to call myself an American? I know my nations national image has been...well...poor recently, but that doesn't make me any less proud. It makes me shake my head, and sometimes my fist, at the stupid things we do. Patriotism doesn't need blindness. That's no longer patriotism, that's nationalism. Nationalism=/=Patriotism
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013
While I understand not blaming the troops for the political decisions behind them, I find it hard to imagine that they are somehow fighting for ones freedom, when they are fighting a war of aggression against a genuinely inferior set of foes which does not seek to invade the US, doesn't have the means to invade the US in the least. Such an army I would not support, even if I supported the ethics behind loyalty towards the military. It doesn't seem to me like US armed forces actually fight for freedom- moreso it seems they fight for US political and economical interests. What's to admire there?

I think it does matter, because armies are a necessary evil. There is nothing heroic about killing people, and it should bot be put on a pedestal. Supporting the army just because seems... poorly grounded to me.
I think being proud of one's nation is irrational. I am from Sweden, and we have a few things to be proud of- socially progressive, reqally good medicare, strong welfare system, high education standards, good average individual wealth levels... but I helped build none of those things. I am part of this system, but I didn't really contribute to it, and neither did the majority of our people. Feeling proud about that is hollow- those are not my achievements to claim. I'd rather be proud of what I've achieved as an an individual, not about things other people who I have no relation to have done.
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:iconzinc-tails:
Zinc-Tails Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Such a simplistic view of what the military does, then again I suppose I gave you a simplistic response to start with. Lets run down other reasons the US military can be good. For one the US military is also a sort of "Technology engine", many major advances were adopted by the military long before they were even a glimmer in the public eye. They also help spur market interest in certain items, as they did with the micro-processor and as they are currently doing ethanol/bio-diesel mixture fuels with the so called "green fleet".

Next, we support our allies in a variety of ways. Our War-Games with Japan and SK, our money and arms shipments to Israel (something I personally do not support, but seems to be in the public favor), our aid in Libya (for better or worse), our peace keeping operations like helping takle the pirates in Somalia, etc.

Also, the war's of aggression, like Iraq and Vietnam, are only a few in our history. What was Sweden doing when the Nazis were marching across Europe...oh right, giving them train-rides and trading iron ore so they wouldn't bomb the shit out of you. Or take our dismantling of terrorist organizations around the world, they may be "inferior" militarily, but they are still a threat. Does an enemy have to be able to invade to be a threat? Slamming planes into our buildings seems like a pretty big threat to me. Bombing night-clubs and blowing themselves up in our allies territories seems like a pretty big threat to me.

Listen, I don't support every action the military does, but I'd rather live in a nation that can protect itself and it's allies then a nation that couldn't, or wouldn't do shit.

"I am part of this system, but I didn't really contribute to it, and neither did the majority of our people." By your logic, you should only feel proud about what you did, and about nothing else. So a person can't be proud when their friend graduates college, a husband can't be proud of his wife when she gets a promotion, fans can't be proud of their favorite team when they win a game? Because there are people who have no relation to them, why should they feel pride for them ea? A rather self-centered view if you ask me. Taking pride in what your nation has done isn't "claiming the achievements" for one's self. It's being proud of the place where it all happened, and being proud of the people that made it happen. I'm sorry that's such a "hollow" thing for you.
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013
What part of this is "simplistic"? What subtlety am I missing- where am I mistaken in saying that they fight a war of aggression, and that the enemy does not have the means to invade the US or really threaten it? And why is this war necessary to stimulate military-related economy?

I'm not opposed to peace-keeping or trade- but that's far from all the US is doing at this point, nor do I think it can be accurately said that your freedom actually hinges on their operations. THAT feels like simplifying it to me.

The US has been at war what, once every twenty years in its history? I will not deny that the US were majorly helpful in WWII- after twiddling their thumbs for half the war, that is. Yes, our country was neutral- what about it? Had we fought, the Germans would have oppressed us and stolen our resources. We were no more fit to put up a resistance than Denmark, which was overrun overnight. I will make no apologies for decisions made by people dead before I was alive.
Again, your freedom does not literally hinge on your supposed war on terror. Nor do you even need the whole military to root out terrorists- there is such a thing as anti-terrorist units, which I am sure the US has as well.

YES! Proud only of my own actions and accomplishments, proud only of things I myself have achieved. Saying that you're proud of somebody else isn't really the same as personal pride- it's a way of expressing happiness and appreciation, so I don't really think it's a valid comparison. If you can say you are proud of somebody, then you must have had a personal influence on said person. This isn't self-centres, it's being honest. I feel pride about my country, inescapably- but I recognize that this pride is irrational and unfounded. I have no basis for being proud about my country or its history, because its accomplishments are not mine to claim.
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:iconzinc-tails:
Zinc-Tails Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
"US were majorly helpful" I'd go as far to say that if it wasn't for us and Russia, the war would have been lost. That's a little more then majorly helpful.

"I'm not opposed to peace-keeping or trade- but that's far from all the US is doing at this point, nor do I think it can be accurately said that your freedom actually hinges on their operations. THAT feels like simplifying it to me." I haven't said once that my freedom hinges on the existence of the military, or that all they do is protect my freedom. I'm pretty sure my entire last post was pointing out other things they do. Defense of the nation, is in essence defense of our basic freedoms however, or at the very least the protection of our national interests. As of yet, no nation can really go toe to toe with us, which is by the virtue of our military. The story would be different if we didn't have one, our threats wouldn't be merely perceived ones then. Consider it a preventive measure. They defend the nation, and our national interests. Hell, in my first bloody comment with you I explained how they've been sent on many wars that have nothing to do with my freedoms or liberty. But that doesn't make me think any less of the people willing to die for our nation.

You're equivocating pride. Personal pride, and expressive pride are the same thing, merely directed at different points. It's the same feeling, just one is internal and directed at ones own accomplishments, the other is external and is the idolization or respect for the accomplishments of others. Or of their traits "I.e, me being proud of someone who has the bravery to put their life on the line, because I respect that trait".
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:icongreatkingrat88:
Greatkingrat88 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013
No, that's how I define "majorly helpful".

Actually, you implied that pretty blatantly. "They put their necks on the line for me, so I can live here comfortably,"
And there I disagree, because you live comfortably whether the US is at war or not. Your freedoms do not, at this point, need the protection of a gun, especially not on foreign shores- the US is still a superpower, and there's really no enemy strong enough to challenge it. To imagine, then, that soldiery is the sole means by which liberty survives is no only simplistic, but incorrect.
And again, I don't blame the soldiers themselves- but I don't think that what is being done at present, in the cases of aggression towards a much weaker foe, makes them worth supporting.

Once more, I must emphasize that there is no rational basis for taking pride in the accomplishments of others. I happened to have been born Swedish, therefore I would take pride in Swedish accomplishments. Had I been born American, it would be American accomplishments, Canada, Candian accomplishments and so forth. Ultimately, only the things that I can do are worth being proud of for me. I can understand a sense of belonging and loyalty towards ones nation, because it's part of ones identity- but not pride. Idolization- which is a foolish trait in itself- is not pride.
I would give a soldier respect- but not pride. The soldier must be regarded as a necessary evil, not a hero.
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(1 Reply)
:iconzinc-tails:
Zinc-Tails Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist Writer
Damn you DA and your stupid emoticons!

Nationalism = / = Patriotism....fuck that smiley face.
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:iconriza-izumi:
Riza-Izumi Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013
I live in Washington :) My only problem with it, is it rains to damn much :stare:
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
Haha. I miss the rain. We've had a pretty wet summer down in Australia, but it's nowhere near the amount of rain I'm used to from back home.
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:icontheatticusnew:
TheAtticusNew Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013  Hobbyist Artist
I'm certain that here are some conservative pricks who say that that's an oxymoron.
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm waiting for one to pop up, should be any time now... lol..
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:iconwhitedraco71:
WhiteDraco71 Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I consider myself a patriot, yes, which is why I complain so damned much about how far the nation has fallen and remind folks that we're not God's Gift to the Planet Earth... and which is also why it deeply hurts me to see ignorant assholes claim I'm "un-American" because I point these things out instead of believing every single thing our government says. To question the government as it presently is, is patriotism.

How much is too much? I think 'too much' is when people totally trust the government's every word and never ever call it into question. When people cease to say that the goverment is doing wrong, that's when they've crossed the line into 'too much,' in my humble opinion.
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
"To question the government as it presently is, is patriotism." Well put, I agree. A lot of what is upsetting me lately is the drone issue - not just what's happening against terrorist targets and the innocent men, women and children who surround them, but also the idea that if the government somehow decides that I'M a threat, they can kill me. And if they decide that a US citizen on American soil is a threat, they can kill them, too. :no:
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:iconwhitedraco71:
WhiteDraco71 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I know... the United States Government has had a sort of a mafia style way of doing things for a long time now. Someone pisses them off, they take out a contract on a person to shut them up permanently, or they 'give them an offer they can't refuse,' as The Godfather would put it. It's been this way since, I think sometime during or after World War II, when the Mafia allied itself with the Feds to help win the war.
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:iconfireshockerbill:
FireshockerBill Featured By Owner Mar 5, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
That's awesome. I support that. :#1:
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:icon8manderz8:
8manderz8 Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
:dance: Yay! Thanks!
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:iconfireshockerbill:
FireshockerBill Featured By Owner Mar 6, 2013  Hobbyist General Artist
You're welcome! :)
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